Penguin’s Reign: DC’s TV Revolution!

[00:00:05] Speaker A: What up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Another Dream Report. I'm your host, Pablo, and joining me, as always, is Mr. Brian Schultz. You sent me a list of what we got to talk about and you said it is a lot, but I think we can do it and I think we can. First up, we got to talk about the Penguin. The viewership numbers, Brian, are exploding. I was reading the article that you sent about that. Some tidbits about episode five and my reaction to episode six. I just saw that last episode. Disney pulls Blade. Is this like a surprise? Like, if you've been watching this show, you know this is not a surprise. [00:00:38] Speaker B: Told you. We told you November 1st. Don't put that in. Don't put that in Marker. [00:00:44] Speaker A: Now they're trying to fast track Midnight Sun's team up, Brian, that we've and many have talked about for a long time about the potential of it happening if they start off with Blade and so on and so forth. And it was one of those, I guess, momentum, momentous team ups similar to the Avengers X Men and such and so on and so forth that could have done, could have been successful for them. Who knows? So they're trying to fast track that and Armor war speak. Armor wars writer speaks out. [00:01:23] Speaker B: Speaking of projects that we tell you not to count on. [00:01:27] Speaker A: Exactly. And some interesting insight into the James Mangold idea of the genesis of the Force. It is just an interesting topic of wondering what this looks like at its first, I guess, wielding of someone that is fast tracking some lanterns news. I think you and I discussed that it would be somewhat of, you know, John is the new recruit and Hal is the OG and he's showing him the ropes. So this is possibly that Netflix animation. You mentioned Tomb Raider and Terminator 0. I have more of an insight and perspective on Terminator 0 than I do Tomb Raider. Because I was watching Tomb Raider, Brian, and the first episode did something that turned me off immediately. We'll talk about that. But Terminator 0 is something else entirely. I saw Venom, you saw the picture that I posted. If you follow me on ig, you saw the picture that I posted on a Friday imax empty. Pretty much. And it seems to reflect. It seems to reflect the actual numbers, Brian, and the actual response people have towards this franchise. Penguin, episode 5. Viewership numbers are exploding. Your thoughts on the episode and what this series is doing for the genre and what this could mean for the future of the comic book. Not necessarily in film, but on tv, bro. [00:03:21] Speaker B: Well, I continue to love this show. People continue to love this show. But I really like that the creators have a clear structure and a plan that they want to follow, and it makes a ton of sense. So from the very beginning, we've been told this show will pick up right after the events of the Batman, specifically the killing of Carmine Falcone and the flooding of the city by the river. So if we think back to our premiere, we are dropped right into that. We're brought right back into the movie from Oz's perspective. We then proceed to spend parts of the next couple of weeks with a fair amount of retrospective. We kind of get the same event taken from Vic's perspective. We get the same event taken from Sophia's perspective. And I love it, because that's what you should use television for. You should use that additional showtime to lay your groundwork. And so we got to the mid season point, which was the conclusion of the Sophia episode. And obviously we. We bring back to present day where she offs all the people that have wronged her over the past decade. And it's kind of like the show's creators were sort of being like, okay, class is over. Is everyone up to speed? Everyone's got their backstory, everyone's got the context. Now we're going to wind this thing up and we're going to go. And to me, episode five was go. It was go time. [00:04:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:55] Speaker B: Because, like, to me, it felt there was a lot of propulsion, there was a lot of forward momentum, there was a lot of crosscurrents. And then we get to a very classic comic book moment. At the end of that episode, we are underneath the city. They found a way to give the Penguin sort of their version of his classic lair in the comics. And it's like this show brings those threads together where you're sort of like, all right, the chess pieces are on the board, people are in motion, making moves against each other. And I feel like the second half of the season is going to be very kinetic. Whereas the first half of the season was awesome, but was a little bit about exposition, a little bit about world building and making sure we were all up to speed. So 10 out of 10. I loved it. I loved it. And I loved what episode five brought. As to the rhythm, Vic has forward momentum in this episode because he's tasked with hiding Oz's mother. Right. Without really necessarily having the criminal experience or the police know how to kind of hide a witness, he's basically got to think on his own and use his instincts. So that's forward development for that character. Right. And I. I kind of like that. Oz obviously has momentum because now he's on the run, right. He's sort of. He. You're seeing him being. Seeing the. The angles taken away from him, and then he's trying to figure new ones out of that. [00:06:15] Speaker A: And that's been the story throughout this. He's always is like the sort of. One of the themes of this show is what, how's he going to do it? How's he going to get out of this one was in this episode was, did she get Vidi? She. [00:06:34] Speaker B: I was going to say forward moment. Her forward momentum is more direct. Right. It takes the end of episode four, where she wipes the slate clean, and then it shows her machinations to kind of pull Moroni to her side and remake the family in her own. [00:06:51] Speaker A: Okay, okay, okay. [00:06:52] Speaker B: Sophia as crime boss. Yes, yes, yes. [00:06:55] Speaker A: You got. [00:06:56] Speaker B: Which is. Which is critical. And you see literally blood money, literal blood money, uses to basically get the buy in of all the underbosses and. And all the henchmen. And you knew Viti was going to get killed at some point, so you figured it would be in graphic fashion. And it was. [00:07:13] Speaker A: But everybody's talking about that scene. [00:07:16] Speaker B: Yeah, but Christy Milioti sells it because when she, you know, she uses the fashion, right. She kind of goes into her mom's closet, and you can tell she's kind of deranged, Right. So she comes out and she's costumed up, and then she's delivering the speech at the table. And, you know, it's. It. It works, man. It's a little comic, but it's a little like De Niro and the Untouchables. Like, it's. [00:07:40] Speaker A: Yeah, it's raw. It's getting down to the bare bones of the motivations of individuals. [00:07:47] Speaker B: There's some interesting ramifications that are going around. So Kristen Milioti may have Colin Farrell this show. And what I mean by that is. So Colin Farrell's turn as the Penguin in the Batman led to his getting this show because he think that vinegar. Well, there's a lot of rumors going around that Krista Milioti is now being written into Batman Part 2, or being her part is being upsized in Batman Part 2 because of this show. So that would be her taking her role in this show and forcing Matt Reeves to make her a bigger part of the Batman's world going forward, which would directly contravene my betting odds, which would have been that she dies in this season. Yeah, I just would have thought there's no way that both she and Oz could get out of this season. But maybe there is a way. Maybe Breeze did have a plan for that. But it seems like there is some talk that maybe we will see Kristen Milioti on the big screen in 2026. [00:08:46] Speaker A: This ending, Brian of the Penguin will be very. I imagine that the viewership is going to be out the roof for the finale of this season because this is supposed to lead towards Batman 2. Correct? [00:09:11] Speaker B: That's what Reeves said. It's supposed to be a direct lead in. And the idea that we have to wait two years for that is just. [00:09:19] Speaker A: Imagine every week, can everyone out there who's watching this show just imagine that in just a few weeks when that at the end of this season, the following weekend is the premiere of Batman 2. Just think about it. [00:09:37] Speaker B: Here's the thing. People like us would be there for the opening weekend of Batman 2 no matter what. But that's not what this is about. It's about when we talk about the viewership. It's about the people that are coming out of the woodwork who don't watch comic book adaptations who are being sucked into this world because of this show. They're the people that, if you fed them Batman Part 2, the week after the finale would be like, yes, I'm now in, and I didn't even see the Pattinson movie in the theater, but I'll go see the sequel because of this TV show. [00:10:11] Speaker A: But the numbers for that movie have gone up on streaming for sure. [00:10:15] Speaker B: But I'm saying, like, you know, from a studio. This is why I think. This is why I do think Penguin Season 2. It's inevitable at this point. We'll talk about the viewership, and it's going to be positioned to lead directly into Batman Part two. I think they're gonna make amends. [00:10:33] Speaker A: I see. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. [00:10:37] Speaker B: I think that's my prediction. Season two of the Pagan will end one to two weeks before Batman Part two comes out. [00:10:44] Speaker A: Would it surprise you if season two includes some aspects or perhaps some aura that is perhaps revealed at the end of Penguin Season 2 of the court of Owls being involved? [00:11:04] Speaker B: Very possible. And in fact, with Reeves saying that Penguin is supposed to lead directly into Part two, what is directly. See, that to me, is the writer's liberty where you could add more detail, you could add another season to bridge more directly from Penguin Season 1 to Batman, but there's always ways to do that. So to your point, that also offers you opportunity for parallels. It offers you opportunity to introduce some characters that are going to get ramped in Batman Part 2. You might even do, like, concurrent chronology where you could sort of have like, hey, you're going to see in a little bit of Penguin Season 2, maybe you'll see some storylines play out from Oz's perspective that then you will see the Batman's perspective on that a week or two later. You can do things like that now because of where this show has gotten to. But I just refuse to believe they're going to miss this opportunity twice. Because now, Pablo, the two numbers that matter every episode has received more viewership than the last on day of viewing. So on HBO proper and on Max, the people who are watching it Sunday night, more people are doing that every single week. That has not happened, that has not happened since Game of Thrones days. Like early Game of Thrones. That's number one. Number two is the number of people who have now seen the first episode of the Penguin is almost 3x what it was in the first week that it came out. That shows you the amount of. So now we've had 14, 15 million people that have seen Penguin episode one that are finding the show and then starting to catch up. So this show is reaching the Game of Thrones phenomenon level. And we haven't even reached the end of the first season, to your point. So, yeah, like, this is a major blockbuster where you're going to have Emmy nominations and you're going to have real zeitgeist buzz for what comes next. [00:12:56] Speaker A: Is it possible that Renzi Feliz could be up for a nomination as well? [00:13:08] Speaker B: I mean, sure, why not? I mean, he'll be. He'll be. They'll enter him. I don't know if. I mean, I. I don't know who he's up against. Right. That's the thing. We never know. Yeah. [00:13:15] Speaker A: We don't know. [00:13:16] Speaker B: So, like, could he earn a nomination? Sure. His part is incredibly hard. And he's. He's also, let's not forget, he's kind of the audience avatar as well. He's our entry to watching these people. He's the normal person. Right. And that's. He's digging us into the world. It's a really hard job that he's being asked. [00:13:33] Speaker A: That's why you gotta watch this. Once you watch this episode, you gotta tell me about what you thought about it. [00:13:39] Speaker B: And he's like, he's like. He's a young actor. Right. It's like you can't get acted off. [00:13:44] Speaker A: The screen by 27 years old Colin Farrell, who's on. [00:13:48] Speaker B: Who's absolutely, like, out of his Mind in this show. And I think, Millie, you could argue Milioti's topping him. And then you've got the mom character who's pretty wild. Like, Vic can't be out. He has to at least stand toe to toe with them for the show to work. [00:14:05] Speaker A: And he's doing it, Brian. He is really doing. I'm proud. I was reading some information about him. We should do a segment where we look up stuff and we do it brought to you by perplexity. AI. That's what we should do because it gives you everything right there. Hey, right when I might as well use it. But he's a Dominican. He was born in the South Bronx. He moved, I believe, to Florida. He's 27 years old, Dominican American, which is the first time I ever heard of that term. So I'm Dominican American, but it's good to see, I guess I would say, my fellow countrymen doing something at this level. Brian. Yeah, because he's doing a phenomenal job. Phenomenal. And you see the transformation. And I think after episode six, think about that question. Could he be another person whose name is thrown into the hat where this show just sweeps mad categories? Brian. [00:15:11] Speaker B: Well, look, I mean, we. This past year, we saw this happen with Shogun, right? We saw it. We just saw this happen in the dramatic category. A show came out and, you know, you're riveted immediately by the lead, but then as you get into the roster, you're like, everybody, everybody is bringing their A game, right? Like Blackthorn, Diana Sawai to Hogan from the Thor movies. Like, these guys are crushing it to where they all swept, right? That's what happened. And like, this show has that same kind of momentum to it. And you get into it, you're like pretty much everyone who's on screen is delivering now. I would say I did not love Mark Strong as the replacement Falcone. That was not my favorite. I didn't. [00:16:02] Speaker A: I liked. [00:16:03] Speaker B: I liked Tutorial better. And it was interesting to see. Tutorial apparently was offered the chance to replay the role, and he chose not to because the character was revealed to be so violent against women. He actually said specifically he didn't want to do it for that reason. So I thought Strong's version of it was not as compelling for what the character was portrayed to have done versus. [00:16:27] Speaker A: What I think definitely took a different take. I'm more reserved, and I didn't like that less. Less character, more reserved sort of portrayal of that character. And I felt that it fit within the environment that they've created in this show. I don't know. Maybe. It certainly could have worked. But I didn't mind that change. [00:16:55] Speaker B: Maybe I would have felt differently had Strong been the character all along. But I felt like the way Tutorial played it in the Batman versus the way Strong played it here was a little too different to my taste to be like, okay, that's the same guy. And then this guy is reported to have had this almost fetish for hanging women at the club. Like, I just. I didn't quite buy it. I didn't love it. So. [00:17:17] Speaker A: Yeah. And he was a young guy. So is this sort of a resurgence of the comic book films? Not film, but the comic book. Having been announced, the possibilities of Deathstroke and. What was the other one? Deathstroke and Bane. Brian, I need to hear. Although we'll get into the conversation about that if you want, about Agatha and that world. [00:17:52] Speaker B: I don't think they're comparable. Okay. [00:17:55] Speaker A: But still, they're being talked about very highly. Brian, from what I. From. Based on the stuff that I've read. But what do you think are. More. Certainly executives are looking to do things. I mean, listen, we're getting Green Lantern, and we already know that is up for already. [00:18:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:23] Speaker A: You know, is that a bar is already at a bar because of the people involved in there. [00:18:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:29] Speaker A: So what do you think about this possibility that the comic book, although in film has been very. Not a fun ride as of late, but on TV is doing something different? [00:18:44] Speaker B: Well, I mean, you could argue it's cyclical. Comic books on TV have been a thing for 50 years, 60 years. Think about, like, Adam West, Batman. That was a hit, a big deal. Right. We don't think of it. It's not at all like the Penguin. [00:18:58] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:18:59] Speaker B: That was a big deal. Right. It was like Burgess Meredith was the Penguin in that. [00:19:04] Speaker A: Right, yeah. [00:19:05] Speaker B: Before he was Mickey. [00:19:06] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:19:07] Speaker B: So you had that Lynda Carter, Wonder Woman, Bill Bixby, Incredible Hulk. Right. So this is the 60s and the 70s. These shows meant something. They became culturally significant on some level. [00:19:21] Speaker A: But then you got the Greatest American Hero after that. [00:19:24] Speaker B: No, but then, like, you know, then. And we're staying in. I'll. I'll stay in live action, then I'll talk about the other. But like, you know, then you bring it forward to, you know, Small Bill's premiere in 2001. [00:19:34] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:19:35] Speaker B: Ever been on CW ever? You know, and so that was a huge moment of Superman growing up. And that was, you know, and Lois and Clark had that. Or it was Lois and Clark Right. Dean Kane and Terry hatcher in the 90s. Right. That had a moment where that show was a big deal. They were on the. [00:19:50] Speaker A: I really got into it. But yeah, no. [00:19:56] Speaker B: The genres of life on TV has oscillated between being a big deal and kind of being like derivative to laughing stock. I think the Penguin and Lanterns are pushing for territory we haven't seen yet, which is there's a stratosphere of television that has typically been reserved for certain types of shows that have always done really well, like true dramas, you know, really intense actor acting type of show. I think Game of Thrones broke the mold in terms of what kind of show people could conceive of winning those types of awards. You could argue that success maybe begot something like Shogun. Ten years later, people thought, hey, I could turn that novel into a true award winning show. I think the Penguin is making people. It's validating something that I think D.C. has gotten right, which is that with HBO at their back, we take TV seriously and we can turn these things into the biggest deal on tv. The fact that there's a cape or there's a moniker for a super villain doesn't limit us. I think all those other shows I mentioned had a ceiling, right? Adam west had a ceiling. Smallville had a ceiling. They were nice shows at points, but there was a part of the audience they were never going to touch. [00:21:20] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. [00:21:23] Speaker B: That's not good enough. We can get to everybody. And the fact that we're based on a comic book doesn't stop us from reaching that level. We've never had that before. And I don't think Marvel's at that level. I don't. [00:21:36] Speaker A: Hell no. [00:21:36] Speaker B: I think it's an insult to the Penguin to put Agatha in the conversation. I don't even want to. It's not even a conversation I'm willing to entertain. And it's not that Agatha is a bad show. It's just that to me, everything Marvel has done in live action tv, with the exception of Loki and even Loki, I don't think got to this level in terms of its notoriety is derivative. It's sideshow entertainment. And you know it's sideshow entertainment when you're in it. When you watch the Penguin, he's a sideshow character to Batman, but he don't feel like a sideshow character in this show. It doesn't. Green Lantern, the two highest profile Green Lanterns are going to headline a show. That's a big deal. And if you take that very seriously and say These guys should be getting nominated for Emmys and we should be going head to head with the Penguin for an Emmy. That's a big deal. And that's why I think, you know, people can doubt, like, whether Diana is going to be in Paradise Lost, but that's why it's going to. I think it's going to push them in that direction that. You know what? It is not an insult to mainline characters to introduce them on prestige tv. Like, Marvel's still treating TV like it's second rate to the movies. [00:22:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:47] Speaker B: DC is not. It's not. Like, I think Matt Reeves, to his credit, is treating this show very much as, like, I've changed the medium. [00:22:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:56] Speaker B: But the value I ascribe to Penguin vs Batman is pretty similar. I'm just using the vehicle differently to get you from place to place. But the production value of this show and the quality of the acting and the quality of writing is testament to the fact that there is no drop off. And in fact, you could argue there's some improvements over what was in the Batman in this show. [00:23:17] Speaker A: Oh, definitely. Definitely. All I gotta say is, man, episode six takes it to another level. It is. It is one. I mean, the discussions of this show being one of the best shows, period, ever to be on TV is definitely a debate I would like to hear. With regards, when you hear of shows like Breaking Bad and other shows, Sopranos, you name it, the big ones, Penguin is up there with them. And it's just amazing to see how much better it gets and how much complex it gets. And it's just phenomenally done. And I'm glad I'm watching this show. I'm glad I was able to. I would say again, this episode is. And I was talking to Brian earlier, this is disturbing, yet phenomenal in terms of the performances and the directions that these characters take. So let us know in the comment section below what you guys think of Penguin so far and what it means for the genre. Next up, some tidbits. Let's stay with dc. The lanterns, the storyline, Jon Stewart is a new recruit. How they show that Brian is very important. [00:24:45] Speaker B: Official language describing the show. That's why I sent it to you. It wasn't a rumor. It was described by HBO as, quote, new recruit Jon Stewart and Lanterns legend Hal Jordan. [00:24:57] Speaker A: Okay, what will be interesting, Brian, to know is what is it about this mystery that brings this legend with this new recruit together? And will that at the beginning of this series, will John not be a lantern just yet? Will it take a few episodes? What are your Thoughts? [00:25:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:30] Speaker A: What are you speculating? [00:25:31] Speaker B: I think it's validating some of we discussed. I'm going to say new recruit to means we're going to get with an origin story for Jon Stewart and his induction into the core. Which means I think we're going to get Jon Stewart, military man. I think you're going to see a little bit of that. I think a classic TV structure would be to give you some kind of set piece or some kind of early show episode that provides a backdrop for what his skill set already is. Why he would potentially be, you know, a candidate for the ring in some capacity. I think Lantern's legend really sets the stage for Hal having an ego. Right. Like, why would Hal be feeling himself and be kind of feeling like he's the authority and all things Green Lantern? Like, yeah, they refer to him as the legend. So I'm guessing he's going to carry himself as such. And that. That I think is perfect father for the kind of partnership and the kind of dynamic that we would expect from this show. And having Aaron Pierre and Kyle Chandler. Yeah, they're on the same side, but there'll be moments where they're definitely pushing against each other and clashing about methods and, you know, techniques and lessons. So I think the fact that they've officially labeled it as that is just sort of a confirmation of where we are in the development of path of these two characters and is what we. I think we would have wanted. So it's great. [00:26:44] Speaker A: I can't wait. The feelings that we have for the Penguin was certainly be pent up feelings that we'll have at the beginning of Green Lantern in terms of the excitement, in terms of what we're looking forward to seeing, especially after seeing a trailer, getting more details of what this is about, who is in it. All these questions that we have and all the little tidbits that we get out of that camp are exciting news to and I just can't wait. [00:27:23] Speaker B: The TV question. I just want to add a little bit of something here. Because of Lanterns and Penguin, I think you can make a case that the genre as a whole, you could argue if Lanterns does what we think it can do on the back of Penguin doing what it's doing. And I feel like we have to bring this in here when you layer in what was produced By X Men 97 possibilities of caped Crusader. I'll even include Blue Eye Samurai here too. Even though it's not technically a comic book adaptation, but genres have. [00:28:02] Speaker A: What I would say for Blue Eye Samurai is The fact that it's doing what some of these comic books shows are doing is telling a compelling story. Go ahead. [00:28:10] Speaker B: The structure. The structure is very comic book, even if it's not based on a Marvel DC property. My point is the genre is trending up to unprecedented heights in animated form and in live action television form at the same time that it is trending down in an alarming way in movie form. And we certainly hope that turns around. But I'm simply pointing out that if things like Superman, Fantastic Four, if these things do not succeed, I'm not saying the industry will give up on superhero movies, but the output will continue to decline. There's no question. And what will happen is I think more of the mainline characters will move into tv because if that's where they're successful, that's where they're gonna go like the idea. So I'm not saying that Brave in the Bull will turn into a TV show for sure. But I am saying that if Superman fails and a Supergirl fails, like, is there a world where Brave and the Bold never happens and instead the next iteration of Batman is actually as a TV show on hbo? That's not impossible. Don't tell me that's impossible. The Penguin wins and Green Lantern is nominated for four. Don't tell me that's impossible that Batman isn't headlining a TV show in 2029, Brian. [00:29:38] Speaker A: It would fulfill the very dream I've been asking for for many, many years. If you've been following this show and my other collaborations with Egghead News, we've been. I've been talking about Batman TV show. So to sort of do the deep dives that these characters get in these show. [00:30:03] Speaker B: Sure. Or you could do. Or you could do individual story arcs and live action. It's like, we've seen some of this work. DC Animated has crushed it through the years, but it's like, why couldn't you. I mean, you could say right now it's impossible to conceive of Dark Knight Returns being conceived of anything other than a movie right now. And I would agree with you. But I'm saying imagine we can't get the movie thing turned around. Imagine Superman can't do it. Imagine if even, like, Batman Part 2 is great, but the box office goes down. Like, there's not impossible. And so I'm just saying, like five and ten years from now, is there a world where it's like, you know what? We'll do Dark Knight Returns. We'll do it as 10, eight episode limited series. [00:30:45] Speaker A: Why? Yeah, why not right. Did that Watchmen and did it, you. [00:30:49] Speaker B: Know, IP is going to be there. Where it's going to be, I think is being debated right now. And TV is making a strong case that you can in some ways do better things with the main characters and some of the supporting characters like Penguin on TV than you ever could on the base. Because Penguin, if Penguin was a two hour movie, it would not be nearly as good as it is right now. No chance. No chance. Because you would have to cut out like half of what we see. And this show doesn't work without that. [00:31:17] Speaker A: Blade silently like a thief in the night. [00:31:27] Speaker B: And by the way, we wanted the tape because remember when we got that story about like, oh, they had all the directors in. They even had that other guy, that James Samuels that was going to direct it. He had to get on social saying, nah, I'm not doing that. And then they were like, November 1st, it's gonna happen. We're all set to go November 1st and then we get an updated calendar and Blade is just gone. [00:31:53] Speaker A: We told you that no way this was happening. [00:31:58] Speaker B: And the key is there's no. It's gone. There's no, hey, it's been delayed to this date or it's been delayed to this year. It's just been removed from the calendar entirely. [00:32:12] Speaker A: When do you think Mahershal Ali speaks on this? [00:32:18] Speaker B: I mean, my theory on his exit has always been that it would come up after it's already happened. Like if you remember how Aaron Pierre revealed he was no longer the villain in Blade, he was doing red carpet. Not for Rebel Ridge. It was something prior to Rebel Ridge. And someone asked him about it and he just said, oh, I haven't been attached to that for months. That the new version they're writing doesn't have me in it. Right. So like, whatever had happened went down, like long before it came public. That's always been my theory with Mahershal. They would never like make an announcement that he wasn't played. [00:32:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:54] Speaker B: My thought had just been it wouldn't happen. And then he'd be doing a press. He'll be doing like a press junket next year for like to the Jurassic park movie. [00:33:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:01] Speaker B: Someone will ask, he'll be like, you know, we tried like this and it just didn't. It just wasn't meant to be. But I hope someone else does a great job as a daywalker. That's always how I imagined it would play out. [00:33:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I've always stated that they, the MCU never had a specific thought in terms of the future of Blade in that respect. With that respect and that it deserves similar to what's Wesley Snipe. Wesley Snipes return is what's gotten it back as big as it is. Again, not the Mahershala Ali situation. Granted the MCU hasn't made any moves with it because they really never had any plans based on how that all went down. And you already know Kevin already said it. Yeah, he came to us. That's what this is about. That phrase right there that Kevin said, that's what this is about. Says everything you need to know about this franchise. Not necessarily about the franchise, Brian, but about how this went down. I'm not saying he did a rock move. I'm just saying that Mahershali, I'm pretty sure thought of himself as a possibility to play the character. Who would have said no? Anybody you ask. Of course, the fact that he came to them and that was. And perhaps he was. Who knows? We don't know how the communication and how this relationship was going down between them because it could easily be that Mahershal Ali was calling the shots and. And there was back and forth. [00:35:12] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. Well, I think we can actually fill in a fair amount of these blanks because first off, we had had worked with Netflix on Luke Cage, so not directly with Marvel Studios, but he had been part of a Marvel production. But think of the timing of when he makes this call and when this is announced. Right. So this is after he wins. He wins two Oscars in three years. The years that he won coincide with the run up to Endgame. Right. He's announced in 2019. He's announced at the height of superhero mania, a two time Oscar winner at the height of superhero mania goes to Kevin and says, this is the character I was born to play. That's what he's thinking. [00:36:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:03] Speaker B: He's like, my star is. My stock is as high as it's ever going to be. I have the influence to make this call. And the superhero genre is a guaranteed success. [00:36:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:18] Speaker B: What other version of that story makes sense? So from Marvel's perspective, Because we know Kevin got kind of star goggles. [00:36:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:28] Speaker B: He said yes. [00:36:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:30] Speaker B: And then Mahershali, you know, he didn't go full Dwayne Johnson, but he, he definitely threw his weight around. Right. When the Nick Pixel Auto, he brought his true detective guy in to try to save the project. I think that was him trying to. [00:36:46] Speaker A: I think. [00:36:48] Speaker B: Right. And perhaps because no. See to me like when Marvel came over the top and said no and they threw out that version of the movie, whatever it was that said to me, like, I don't know, this is gonna make it, because that's a tough one to come back from. And then they claim that the Michael Green version, the guy who did Blue Eyes Samurai, the Michael Green version people were generally happy with. And all of a sudden that one fell apart. I will never understand. Now here's the part I will never understand in this. And this is where I think Marvel wears a lot of responsibility. We know somewhere in this timeline, Chad Stahelski, the director of John Wick pitches Kevin Feige on directing Mahershal Ali in Blade. Why did Marvel pass? So you have one of the hottest action directors in Hollywood saying he loves Blade, has an R rated take on Blade. So you could have a two time Oscar winner and John Wick's director and Marvel said no. What exactly were you trying to push into this movie that you said that was not good enough? That's what I want to know. Yeah, because like, what am I missing? Like, I'm not saying Chad Sahelski, Steven Spielberg, but like, look at the John Wick movies. He's. His action hand is as good as there is in Hollywood. [00:38:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:16] Speaker B: So I could put that with vampires. [00:38:19] Speaker A: Yeah. I can't fallen down the stairs for 20 minutes. Not regular human beings. I'm sorry. [00:38:26] Speaker B: There you go. [00:38:26] Speaker A: I just can't. I just can't watch it. [00:38:28] Speaker B: There you go. So I'm just saying that's the moment where I'm like, to me, Marvel clearly wanted this movie to be all about something else than what it should have been about all along. And because they refused to make that movie and we did. And then we got the verification from disgraced Beau Demayo saying that his version of Blade that he wrote along this same timeline was basically the raid with vampires. So you had pitching you consummate action. [00:39:02] Speaker A: No brainer ideas and Marvel's like, nah. [00:39:06] Speaker B: Nah, that's not what this movie's about. Come on, man, that's. We know what, we can kind of, we can kind of sense what's going on here. And it's not good. And it just, it just was not meant to be. [00:39:18] Speaker A: But it is like, how do you say, but yeah to Iron man three year, to the Marvels, yeah to Captain Marvel year, to Thor, love and thunder. But you can't say yeah to whatever they're trying to do over their Blade. It could be whatever is. Nah. [00:39:43] Speaker B: I mean, that kind of fits though, right? Like some of the themes they focused on in love and Thunder. And some of the themes they focused on in the Marvels and some of the themes that they seem to want to focus on in Blade versus the ones that are being pitched. It does kind of line up. [00:39:56] Speaker A: It just smells funny, that's all. [00:39:58] Speaker B: Well, you know who's going to be the winner of that is Henry Cavill because he gets Chad Sahelski directing him in Highlander and I think that's going to be a badass movie when it comes out. [00:40:08] Speaker A: I've never got into the Highlander films, but I know there's a fan base for it. So that's. And then Harry Cowell has his fan base, so that's just. Cha Ching. Anyway. So, Brian, this thought of the Midnight Suns. Your thought on that. It had the opportunity. I've always thought of that. Listen, you have to have something outside of the Avengers because you. I mean, you just can't wait all these years to get that billion dollars. Right. Why not build towards another team? Right. Well, but could do a horror sort of. Sort of thing with. But with the Midnight Suns. You could have had that going. Brian, I believe. And I'll say this before we. Before I get your take on the Midnight Sun. X Men should not be the first film. The X Men should be. Should be treated like the formation of the X Men should be like, similar to the Avengers. Go ahead. [00:41:10] Speaker B: I go back and forth. There is a world where starting with the team of Midnight Suns can work. [00:41:16] Speaker A: Okay. [00:41:17] Speaker B: Some of the. You know, I think back to some of my favorite movies of all time. I always talk about Magnificent Seven. That's kind of the idea. You're putting the team together in the first movie. You're not doing. You don't do a movie about Chris and about Vin, like Lee, like. You mean all of them in the same movie? And they go down and they fight the bandits right at the end. Right. So this idea that you have to do an individual character film or show for every single character before you get the team up, it's not a must, but okay. But given the state of the franchise, I am far more concerned than I am excited when I see that headline. And what I'm getting in my head is a lot of Justice League vibes of Warner Brothers was rushing, rushing to match the Avengers. They just trampled good storytelling along the way and got a box office turd as a result. Marvel can't get Blade off the ground. Marvel's back and forth on what they want to do with Ghost Rider. Moon Knight came and went like, so now they're like well, we'll just fast. We got this Thunderbolts thing going. We'll just go right to these team movies. Team movies. Team movies. And I'm kind of like, if you do 3, 4, 5 of these and a couple of them aren't good, I mean, who's gonna show up? [00:42:40] Speaker A: You. You're getting MCUs turning into Sony now. Almost making. [00:42:45] Speaker B: Yeah. You say for what it is. Yeah, exactly. [00:42:48] Speaker A: And I'm not saying that the Midnight Suns, we had to wait 10 years. We couldn't listen, I believe. Isn't Dr. Strange a member of the Midnight Suns? [00:42:57] Speaker B: Midnight Suns has a large roster over time. Right. So there's a lot of flexibility in terms of include. There's some core members and then there's like individual comic writers have changed the roster. [00:43:09] Speaker A: So yes, two or three movies would have done it. Two or three movies. Two to the third or fourth movie could have led you to that team up because you have Ghost Rider, a big prominent character in the mcu that. That hasn't been done right. And you have now in the possession. Is in the possession of the mcu. So we want to see what you can do with this, this, this, this character. And, and the hopes is you don't. If you. That you don't Hulk it, right. Mess it up, destroy it. Because that's what you've done with the hook anyway. You had. And then you have Blade, right. You have two characters there that you can do that can lead you to that team up movie. [00:43:59] Speaker B: I think it's the point about teams. I think if you're gonna have. If we're gonna live in the world where you got Avengers movies and you know, we got Fantastic Four, they're a team. Their family with their team. And you're gonna have Thunderbolts as a team. And now you're gonna have Midnight Suns as a team. And now you're gonna do X Men as a team. So that's five teams that I just outlined. And then you're gonna do Young Avengers. That's six teams. I mean, we ain't building the NFL here. [00:44:28] Speaker A: A force. [00:44:29] Speaker B: Oh. So my point is when you do that, it puts a premium in my mind that they have to be tonally different, they have to look different, they have to feel different. It has to be something unique. If all you're gonna do is be like, this movie basically is the Avengers, except it's got Blade and Ghost Rider that will fail spectacularly. So to your. This goes to your point about like, if you make a true horror, if you make it true Art. If you're gonna create something very gothic that is so different and so dark that like, you instantly know it's just radically different than what you see with the Avengers. That could, could work. But my problem with that is, do you want to do that with the team right out of the gate? Don't you want to test drive that idea with one, maybe two, maybe do a. Two, maybe do a duo as opposed to just one? Right? Yeah, but I think it's. I think my concern when you do stuff like this and it doesn't work is it's a setback to the library. It's like if you admit Midnight Suns movie with six, seven characters and the movie bombs, it's not like you can then do spin offs of those memories. Remember Black Adam? All those spin offs we were going to get? Where's that Hawkman spin off? When's that happening? That happening? Let's call Alice Hodges Agent Happening. Okay. When you do. When you do bad team ups and you bomb out of the gate with the team, nothing happens after that. So if Marvel's gonna have five or six teams and four or five of these team ups aren't gonna work, that's a lot of characters you got to put on the shelf for a while. [00:46:06] Speaker A: Yeah. You gonna say something about the X. [00:46:08] Speaker B: Men to our prior discussion? We're going to keep stumping for it. We're going to keep riding for it until Marvel does it. But I think we're not going to carry the torch for this. The Penguin is going to carry the torch for us. Green Lantern is going to carry the torch for us. If those shows mint audience, mint Emmys and mint money, that is the route that they shall take on Marvel to put X Men as leads of shows, not sideshow characters. But the things we've talked about, why do you have to introduce all them on the big screen? It's not an insult. Okay, fine. You don't want to do Wolverine Anthology even though it's a great TV idea, Fine. You don't have to do that. You can do others. You can introduce other core X Men on Disney Plus. Do it right. Take it serious. Get a big actor in there, get a big showrunner in there. Make us be excited when they transition to the big screen. I think there's gonna be pressure on Marvel to do that because of what DC's doing. [00:47:11] Speaker A: How the tables have turned. Armor Wars. The Armor wars writer speaks out. Brian. What did he say? [00:47:21] Speaker B: Obviously, Armor wars started out as a TV show, was changed to a movie. We've never Actually had any commentary, people. Yeah, we never had any commentary, though, on along the way what was actually going on, other than even Don Cheadle kind of saying, like, he didn't know. We finally got one of the writers on the show to speak, Yasir Lester, who apparently wrote scripts for the TV series. He said, and I think this is pretty honest, he said, quote, I think the story I told is a very fun series, not film, he said, but I think that Marvel is constantly in a state of what is most interesting. And honestly, I believe some of their films should have been series and some of their series should have been films. And I think they're taking that more into account and trying to give that more thought now. End quote. Amen to that. Yeah, I'm not saying this project necessarily should have been either, but yeah, he's spot on that. I think Marvel has sometimes guessed and been wrong about the medium for where they put certain products and wrong about. [00:48:37] Speaker A: Where to go, what to do next, where to go ahead with their stories. [00:48:42] Speaker B: My thing has been, I think the Thunderbolts would have been better as a. As a prestige show. And I think we're going to. We'll see if I'm right about that. But that's one that comes to mind. Going the other way, you could argue there's parts of something like Loki that might have been more cinematic than it could ever be on television. You could argue that. We've just talked about the X Men, but I do think Marvel has not always been finger on the pulse about where a character should be displayed. [00:49:12] Speaker A: I think you got too many people over there, Marvel, who are feeling themselves too much and thinking that they know what's best and look aware. Gotten you. What else could it be? [00:49:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's also, if you look at the way the world was when Endgame went to the theaters, Disney plus wasn't even a thing yet, right? [00:49:32] Speaker A: No. [00:49:33] Speaker B: And then we went through this phase because of COVID where everyone thought streaming was going to take over the world. And so there was unlimited content, unlimited investment, willing to lose unlimited money just to get that next subscriber. So Disney, like everyone else, was thinking, okay, everything's gonna be Disney plus, basically. And then I feel like that caused in some ways the movies to suffer. I don't think that was unrelated. And now I think you're in this world of they're not totally sure of what should go where. And I think in fairness to them, D.C. has one major advantage they don't have, which is HBO, the network that's A channel that has an identity that's been built over decades of what they show on tv, not on stream. There is no Disney Net. I mean this Disney Channel for kids, but there's no Disney Network. That show has shown prime time television forever. So I don't think they've quite figured that out yet. [00:50:32] Speaker A: Certainly they've taken the risks in order to believe they are able to do so. Brian. And it just hasn't worked out, obviously. But when you guess, when you make the money that the MCU was making, you have people who have been there from jump street given the keys to do some based on the success that they've gotten. And that's the way the approach towards the six episode series came along. That's where that whole thing started. And it just hasn't worked out for them. But they seem to have. I know you say Agatha, I know Agatha isn't, you know, nowhere near the same level as Penguin, but it's still. You have people out there that are really enjoying this, this, this show. Let's see if they can turn it around. [00:51:35] Speaker B: The lack of. Yeah, and I think they're enjoying the. It's. It is more derivative. It's not as connected. It's probably being unburdened a little bit by, you know, not having as much action or not having as much sort of MCU ishness to live up to. That's probably helped the show. It's about, it's not really for me, like I don't think it's my favorite thing. [00:51:55] Speaker A: It's well made. [00:51:56] Speaker B: I think it's pretty well received. But like it's just not. Not my favorite subject matter. But you're seeing Marvel move toward the DC model in the sense of right now they have a tradition. They're doing traditional showrunners, traditional writers room. Right. They weren't doing that for the first rounds of shows. They were kind of thinking they could reinvent the TV model by kind of doing it movie like, but just on TV. And that hasn't worked. But where D.C. has the jump on them clearly is I think the resume and the prestige of who's doing their shows is just better right now. Now that will change. Someday somebody huge will do a Marvel TV show and some huge lead will do it and that probably will change, you know, change the tide. But for right now it's like the Lindelofs and the Mondays and the director of Slow Horses and the Matt Reeves of the world. They're going, they're working over at, in the D.C. and the HBO Lot. You know, they're not saying. Not saying the talent is bad on the Marvel side. It's just less. There's less of a proven commodity in some of these showrunners so far. But we'll see, you know, we'll see what comes. [00:53:03] Speaker A: Speaking of troublesome. [00:53:07] Speaker B: Projects, we gotta start. Odds of Blade versus this. Go ahead. [00:53:11] Speaker A: I think the same odds. [00:53:12] Speaker B: No, there's a lot of commonality to these two projects. Go ahead. [00:53:16] Speaker A: Daisy Ridley, Star War loses another writer and mangle Star wars idea of the genesis of the Jedi the Force. That idea has been creeping up into a possible green light. Brian, your thoughts on this? I don't know why we still talking about it, really, but your thoughts. [00:53:43] Speaker B: So we had actually hinted at this in an earlier show. There were rumors about this now confirmed. So Stephen Knight, best known as the creator of Peaky Blinders, is no longer writing the Daisy Ridley Star wars movie. New Jedi Order. As I said, I figured that would make sense because Stephen Knight is now directing and writing the Pinky Blinders movie, which I think is going to be kind of a hit because its lead is, of course, Cillian Murphy. That would be the reigning Best Actor. [00:54:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:13] Speaker B: Nice timing. You get to wrap up your TV show with a movie that happens to star the winner of Best Actor in the past year. Yeah, I go, I. I would leave Daisy Ridley, Star wars for that too. You know, Ridley of herself was asked about it and kind of was just like, whatever. She was kind of just like, I'm not worried about it. Like, I don't know what's going on. [00:54:39] Speaker A: Like, need not be worried about it. [00:54:41] Speaker B: You know, he's like, we don't have. She goes, oh. And they asked because, remember there was a talk that was going to come out in 2026. They had a date. No, we don't have a date. I think the creative process is one that is really a journey. I'm genuinely excited, but I really do mean I'm excited about what's coming. And we have the luxury of making sure that this is right. Yes, she knows. She knows. [00:55:03] Speaker A: She knows. [00:55:04] Speaker B: This has the. I said the parallels are so hilarious to the Blade movie because there's all. There's still those rumors about Kathleen Kennedy, green lighting, announcing this movie and getting Daisy Ridley to go on stage at that event where she was supposed to reside and retire. And instead I'm not leaving. Set Daisy really out as a pawn for her, you know. [00:55:27] Speaker A: For her continued conquest. [00:55:30] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:55:35] Speaker A: I could. I wish I could have been in the room when them dudes is all Talking about Kennedy resigning and thinking it's gonna happen. Them dudes toasting and everything. And then she says what she says and they're like, what? [00:55:48] Speaker B: She says, these aren't the droids you're looking for. She's telling, man, she's the most powerful force wielder of all in that room. Are you kidding me? [00:55:55] Speaker A: Word up. She knows where everything is at. She. [00:56:00] Speaker B: She has to find your lack of faith disturbing. Yeah, exactly. I mean, just something. And there's. I read a report about that that like now it's like there's all these lingering rumors that she is she or isn't she going? And it's like, well, now they're like, well, you know, now she's safe through at least the first half of 2025. It's like she keeps, keeps hanging on, hanging on. Now they are going to get a movie. They are going to get a movie because Mando and Grogu, because Jon Favreau and Dave Filoni still do their thing. They wrapped it, it's done. So that movie is going to happen. We said that was going to happen. It will happen. It was filmed, it's finished. You will get that interesting. But to your point, I think the far more interesting one is can we get the Mangold one? Which does seem like it's got a little momentum. Can we get the James Mangold Origin of Force movie? [00:56:49] Speaker A: That's what I'm interested in seeing how this manifests into someone, some. A being wielding that force and what it looks like because we've seen some force wield wielding. Amazing. It depends on the era that you're in is how more fantastic it looks. [00:57:19] Speaker B: The only thing the acolyte gave us that I thought was true to the essence of Star wars was the kung fu action. [00:57:26] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. But to see that, to see it from its genesis and that I like. [00:57:33] Speaker B: It too because as we talk about pitches, right, we talk about pitches for ideas. I like Mangold's pitch for this. It isn't just force. He said he's looking at Hollywood history. He basically has pitched this as it's the biblical epic of Star Wars. It's the Ten Commandments, the Ben Hur Star Wars I'm in. I'm just saying it's like we said, if you can give a one sentence idea that encapsulates something interesting in this nip, those usually work. That's his inspiration, is that idea of like a Moses character or like, like an actual, that kind of character. William the Fourth. It's at least interesting like, come on, tell me you're not least intrigued to see what that looks. [00:58:21] Speaker A: Most definitely. You put that choice and Daisy Ridley, I'm like, yo, what. What are you. What are we trying to do here? You know, what kind of choice are you giving me? Like, really, like, whoa, why would I choose this other thing that you're giving me? You know? Yeah. Let us know in the comment section below what you guys think of this Daisy Ridley stuff while we still talking about it. And give us the Genesis. Yeah, give us that. I want to see that. Because it could finally maybe help us forget about what we've seen as of yet, as of late. Because this really Daisy Ridley movie, again, is based on a lie. She is not a skywalker. Why do you want to continue that? To do what? To see what? I don't know. Let's start off with a segment. A segment, Brian, because you said we should do some segments. We got to do a segment for this. What the hell are we doing here, Harry Venom, Brian. I saw it. I knew. What. What are we doing here? He even said it in the move in the movie when he was on that road trip to Las Vegas. I can't believe this is. What are we doing? What, what can we. Come here? Venom. The. The Venom movie. I was surprised. I was shocked that I was listening to John Campia and I was agreeing with pretty much everything he had to say about what he thought about that movie. Because there were some aspects, Brian, I was really intrigued. And that was that third act. The action was really well done, but everything else was, yo, what the hell are we doing here, Brian? When he goes to a theater, for the most part, it's usually not that crowded, even though it will probably be crowded in New York or for the most part, I would say over 67. It felt like a Monday at 1:00 in the afternoon. That I've seen a couple of breakdowns of the films and I've heard some of the same gripes of this film with regards to Null. What the hell are we doing here? This is perfect. Ryan, what are we. What are your thoughts? What. What did you think of this as you were watching it? [01:01:09] Speaker B: Yeah, so I was. I went to see it in a large format theater, 70 millimeter large format theater. So it's bigger than usual. I was one of seven people in my showing. Okay, so an interesting crowd too. There were like two teenagers and there was like a. An elderly couple, which I would have loved to have gotten their take on this. And then, you know, kind of a couple of Individuals like myself kind of spread out throughout the theater. What are we doing here? I mean, you know, it's. It's Tom Hardy's show. Right. You can see it. He co wrote the movie with Kelly Marcel, who wrote the last movie, and Kelly Marcel's one of his people, and Kelly Marcel directed this movie. So this is kind of a. [01:01:59] Speaker A: Sounds rock movish. [01:02:01] Speaker B: It's a little bit of. Tom Hardy loves this character and I think they kind of just let him do what he wanted pretty much. But I do think they let him do what he wanted in terms of what they shot. I do think the studio edited it pretty heavily because the movie feels pretty chopped to me. When you watch it, it's sort of like, this can't be like, there must be like another 45 minutes somewhere that you kind of just had. Maybe studio was like, nah, this is gonna be under two hours no matter what. [01:02:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:02:36] Speaker B: I will say this. It's not a good movie by any stretch of the imagination. But I would submit none of the three movies were good movies. [01:02:45] Speaker A: No. Although I like the first one. [01:02:49] Speaker B: I. Well, the first one's the best because it felt like. [01:02:52] Speaker A: Because I felt. It felt like a. I felt like I was watching a Venom movie and I was fine with that. [01:02:58] Speaker B: True. There was an element of fun to this, like, silly fun to this that. Because it, like Madame Webb was so bad and you could tell everyone involved with it knew it was so bad that it was kind of like they quit on it day one. And you kind of feel that on screen, like Morbius. Jared Leto didn't get the memo this was gonna be bad and like takes it so seriously and then it's so bad. So then it's like, that's a terrible experience. [01:03:34] Speaker A: Right. [01:03:34] Speaker B: And it's like Joker is the ultimate example of people taking a movie ultra seriously and it being terrible, like from minute one. And you're just like, oh my God, how long do I have to be here? So there is this whiff in this movie of, I knew it wasn't going to be good going in. I think they knew it's not supposed to be that good, but because it's like a send off, they kind of were like, we're just gonna do the things we want to do and have a little fun with it. And I did think there was a little bit of silly fun to this that I didn't totally despise. Relative to the typical Sony output, again, it's not good. I'm not gonna give it a good rating. [01:04:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:04:18] Speaker B: But like, it went by pretty quick. I didn't feel like I was in the theater that long. [01:04:23] Speaker A: So I would say that as well. I didn't feel like I was in the theater very long. Although the. Some of the scenes felt very long. Like the. Him meeting the family and him walking and trying to get to stake is. Yeah, that. [01:04:40] Speaker B: Because, I mean, the whole. The whole trilogy is held together by Eddie and Meno. That's the only. Like, either you like that or you don't. But that dynamic is the only thing that has ever mattered to this trilogy. And in this movie, that is the best part of the movie. There are moments where the symbiote and him have this dynamic where it's sort of like, oh, yeah, that's. That's where this can sort of work. And when it tries to get away from that and be serious and tries to introduce other name actors for reasons unknown, I mean, she would tell a Geo4. Really? Is that where your career is at? That you're. You taking that part? I mean, this guy's been nominated for an Academy Award. Like, really, Like, Juno Temple is nominated for an Emmy and Ted Lasso, like, really, like, that's. That's where we're at with these. These characters, with these actors. Like, I don't. They added nothing. Like, why are they in this movie? [01:05:35] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:05:39] Speaker B: They also in the symbiote. Right. Let's be fair. Like, this is the, like, Hardy's on his way out. They're doing whatever the hell they want and because remember, like, the whole point of like Eddie and the Symbiote is like, there's a. There's like a bond that has to be there. [01:05:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:05:58] Speaker B: Makes that duality interesting. And in the final act of this movie, it's like, you and I can be symbiote. It's like, just give us a little group and we'll just turn into, you know, I don't know exactly what I'd get. Would I get cool hair? I don't know what I'd get if I was. But like, that's what we got. All sorts of colors, all sorts of shapes, all sorts of sizes. Right. Which kind of makes it silly. But that's why I sort of was like, you know what? It's not the worst set piece I've ever seen. They're just. They know that they're not taking this seriously and they're just kind of kind of goofing around a little bit. [01:06:27] Speaker A: Out of five, what would you give it? [01:06:30] Speaker B: One and a half? [01:06:31] Speaker A: Yeah. I was thinking the same. I Was I was thinking, because I was entertained by the action sequences, because I was really like you. How the hell they're going to get out of this? Me engaged. I will give it a two. [01:06:48] Speaker B: Okay. I mean, to me, Null is just like Sony being Sony. That's all that is to me. Right. What is the. What is the library of things that Sony has tried to tease in this movie. These movies that we know will never happen. Vulture and Morbius, we've had the Madame Web, whatever that was by the end of the episode. [01:07:12] Speaker A: What the hell are we doing here? Yes. [01:07:14] Speaker B: Right. So, like, we've had these in these different. And we've had Venom crossing over into the spider verse, but they're not crossing over. Like, Sony has given you all these franchise directions. They tend to go in. That will never happen. And this movie had, like, three of those. And the entire character of Null is that. I mean, he didn't even get to be. He didn't even get to be the Galactus Cloud. That's how useless he was. [01:07:42] Speaker A: For some of the breakdowns that I hear and the possibilities of showing up in. In, like, Secret wars or something, setting them up for something else. Like, who cares? This is definitely not that. Thanos. Turn and reveal. This is. [01:07:56] Speaker B: Oh, my God. [01:07:57] Speaker A: Not by a long shot. [01:07:59] Speaker B: I'm sure Sony thought it was when they put that scene together where he looks up, which is hilarious because it's like we just spent two hours with them telling us if we destroy the Codex. Copyright alert. Man of Steel leaving. Look the same, by the way, like, shimmering light thing. Like, we got told for two hours. If we destroy the Codex, we can. We can keep Null in prison forever. Yet Null tells us immediately in midway through the credits. I'm awake. I'm back. I'm gonna look up. Yeah. So that's how, you know, the movie just didn't. Didn't mean anything. But. [01:08:38] Speaker A: Yeah, but let us know in the comment section below what you guys thought of the movie. If you saw it. If you didn't, good for you. There's really no reason. Unless you like the first two films. If you like the first two films, then don't waste your time. If you like the film a little. [01:08:59] Speaker B: More than two, I gotta be honest. [01:09:01] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did too. I did too. [01:09:03] Speaker B: I'd say one, three. Two is how I would tell you. [01:09:06] Speaker A: Yes. These are, yeah, Netflix Animation, Brian. Tomb Raider and Terminator 0. Tomb Raider, Brian. I started watching the first episode and then there's one thing where she was trying to get across because the ladder Wasn't really accessible because it was, you know, old and whatever. [01:09:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:09:29] Speaker A: And then they give her. They show a shot of her looking across and thinking, like. And then you see the. Her rope at the other end. I don't know how they got over there. Secure. I don't know how I got over there. And I was like, no, I can't watch this, but Terminator 0. Do you go ahead about Term Tomb Raider? What's your thoughts on that? [01:09:55] Speaker B: So the reason why I thought. We thought about. [01:09:58] Speaker A: And this. Because this is new. [01:09:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. So the reason why I thought this could be a show is because there's parts of IP that we don't always kind of focus on. But I think that Netflix, we talked about this golden age of animation that's sort of taking hold in sort of superhero specific, but it's kind of going beyond that. And I think Netflix has been a pretty good agent of this. And because it's Netflix, they don't necessarily promote these individually, maybe the way they should. Right. So, like, Blue Eyes Samurai becomes this massive hit, but it's not because Netflix necessarily positioned it as this one of one show. It just became that, you know, I'm not as well versed in some of the properties you watched. You know, the Castlevanias, the Blood of Zeus. Right. These are things that Netflix has done for a while that have followings but don't necessarily get huge attention. But these were interesting to me because these were two mainstream IPs that most people are familiar with that Netflix took to anime. And I was very interested to just see, like, what they would do with them. And I have different opinions on both, but I think both are worth a watch. Would be. My first take is that I think Tomb Raider is flawed, but I think Haley Atwell does a really good job as the voice of Lara. And I think there's. The animation is pretty good. And I think there's enough in the show that you're kind of like, all right, they already announced the season two. And I was like, I'd come back and watch another season. My main complaints would be I don't think there's enough puzzling in the show. Like, if you think about the video game, a lot of the video game really, is this, like, true? Riddle solving, problem solving, to get from place to place and to get through these tombs and these elaborate structures. [01:11:36] Speaker A: Yes. [01:11:36] Speaker B: And I think Lara in this show is a little too. It's a little too straightforward at points. She just kind of knows everything, and it kind of just like, moves. So my Advice to them in season two would be make it harder for her, like, make more challenging puzzles, that we spend more time in these places to kind of get the objects. But I think. [01:11:56] Speaker A: I think that was one of the most intriguing parts of, like, National Treasure and stuff like that. [01:12:00] Speaker B: No doubt, 100%. So that's why I would say, like, the show, to me, is weaker than it should be. But I think the characters are somewhat interesting. And she's got. Richard Armitage, who's a pretty good actor, is sort of the bad guy. He's got a great voice. So I think it's a worthwhile watch. I'd probably give it, like, you know, three stars out of five. Like, it's flawed, but I think it's an easy thing to get through the eight episodes. And I think you'll, you know, be like, all right, that's pretty. Terminator, I thought was more interesting because that ip, I almost wonder. I've wondered, is it dead? Like, dead dead? And this show made me rethink that. And I was kind of like. And it's funny because. We'll talk about Cameron in a second. I think he's finally ready to do something again in live action with Terminator and this show. I wonder if it might even give him ideas about what to do with. But it took me a couple episodes to get into. I gotta be honest, the first couple episodes, I wasn't sure. I was like. But right around episode four where, like, kind of like this, where Skynet launches and Coco comes online. From that point onward, you gotta do this. That's. That's it. [01:13:14] Speaker A: I would say, Ryan, that this show gives. Gives me the same suspense and feeling as watching the original Terminator and the subject matter as well, that they talk about human race. And, you know, all that stuff is sort of a little bit of anxiety in it because, you know, we're living in times where, you know. [01:13:42] Speaker B: Nobody'S taking any lessons from the Terminator franchise. None. None. [01:13:47] Speaker A: I like the. The female character that they send back. One of the things that I sort of think and scratch my head is when she's fighting the Terminator, there are some skills that obviously she's learned in order to deal with them. But taking direct hits from them, that's a different story. Whereas with other beings, he was handling very easily. So that was one of the things. But still, that the Terminator aspect of it is still, I think, has. Still has that original Terminator feeling to it. [01:14:32] Speaker B: Yeah, it's funny you say that, because Terminator 1 and Terminator 2 are two completely different genres. And it's interesting that I feel like in. As we've gone forward and the franchise has kind of metastasized, everything has really been built around Terminator 2. Not Terminator 1. Yeah. Terminator 1 is a low budget, basically indie horror movie where Michael Myers happens to be a cyborg. That's basically what that movie is. Terminator 2 is a blockbuster. Maybe the blockbuster action movie ever made could not be more different. [01:15:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:15:14] Speaker B: So you're right. This thing, this show feels very small, even though the stakes are global, if that makes sense. Like, the combat is very like one to one in small spaces. It's like, you know, in corners and alleys and elevators and. But then, you know that the stakes are basically like the end of the world. Right. The end of civilization. I think that, you know, it took me a little while. I'll get me on. It took me a little while to get with the protagonist, with the female soldier. Maybe because. And maybe this is my point about the ip, maybe because this franchise has always been built around Sarah in some ways as this sort of freedom fighter. It almost feels hard to do that again and make it relevant because in Terminator 1, she's an innocent. Right. She basically has no skills at all. [01:16:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:16:10] Speaker B: She has spirit, which she uses at the end, but she has no fighting skills. Where in the second one, she effectively is a Terminator herself. [01:16:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:16:18] Speaker B: You see that when she goes to kill Dyson. [01:16:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:16:21] Speaker B: And then they kind of try to keep redoing that. Right. The Mackenzie Davis character in Dark Fate is basically like a souped up Sarah ish character who then needs Sarah herself. And so it took me a while to get there. I was far more interested in the Malcolm Lee character, which I thought was a very well conceived character. They took the Dyson idea and they actually made it. Spoiler alert. Like a time traveling character, which I thought was cool. Like this idea of what if. The what if we kind of had this almost multiversal approach to Skynet itself. Are there some moments of action that defy realism? Yes. But you know why I forgive it? Because it's so well staged. I think it's drawn so well, and they use the violence so well. And Timothy Oliphant, using him as the voice of the Terminator, even though he doesn't have that many lines, I think is a good choice. So it works. I think it works in that sense of the action looks good and it's. It is compelling. [01:17:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:17:21] Speaker B: And there are enough actual fatalities and injuries to where you're kind of like, you don't totally know what's going to happen in each exchange. [01:17:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:17:32] Speaker B: So I think the show really builds incredible momentum into the finale. To where I'm like, they haven't said, I don't think if there is going to be a season two of this, but I am really hoping for one. And like I said, James Cameron out of nowhere said he has an idea and is working on the actual Terminator sequel to his story. [01:17:57] Speaker A: So it would be Terminator 3. [01:17:59] Speaker B: Yeah. But he kind of said it would be like Terminator 1 in the sense of. He said something about Dark Fate because he produced Dark Fate. It was the first one he had any involvement in, which is not a terrible movie. But he said the reason it failed is there's no attempt in Dark Fate to build a new audience. He's like, we're relying on Arnold, we're relying on all this. We're relying on Linda Hamilton, we're relying on all the same tropes. And in order to expand the audience, we need actual new ideas that are true to Terminator idea to do that. And I think this show kind of beat him to that. This show. And that's why I wonder if he will certainly be aware of it. And I'm sure he'll look at this and be like, yeah, there's stuff in here I can probably use. [01:18:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:18:48] Speaker B: But if James Cameron is ever going to do a true next Terminator movie that will be a hit because it's him. [01:18:54] Speaker A: Of course. Of course. And he's going to get whatever money he needs to get what he needs to get done. [01:19:01] Speaker B: And similarly to. We talk about in the Star wars getting away from the Skywalkers, I think he finally realizes he has to get away from Arnold. Like, can't be in it. Doesn't work if he's in it in any way. [01:19:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Interesting. Unless he does a cameo. If it'll be a cool. Like the. The first model was built off of his resemblance or like, whatever. Yeah, yes, he was. He. He was the. The foundation or the. Out of respect, whatever. That would be a cool story. But why do they make this dude look like him? But anyway, so I would just say. [01:19:48] Speaker B: To people, you know, these shows are not on the level of Blue Eye Samurai, but if you haven't seen any of them, watch Blue Eye Samurai first. Because that's a five star show. That's the one reason. But if you're hunting around and you're looking for something animated that is. Involves worlds, you know, and you're not going to waste your time, give these shows a shot like they're Terminator Z. [01:20:10] Speaker A: Is definitely one of those. There's some stuff there, definitely. But yeah, let us know in the comment section below what you guys think of. Everything that we've actually talked about today has been a lot. We had the 130 mark blade, midnight, Midnight Suns, Armor Wars. None of them seeming to go anywhere except for probably Midnight Suns. Because there's more to gain. I don't know how, Brian, how you. How there's more to gain with Midnight Suns being that you haven't really set up anything. And you think. Because granted, you gotta find out what Thunderbolts is gonna do and what Captain America is gonna do. If none of these movies, Brian, which we don't think is gonna probably do. [01:20:57] Speaker B: Well, I think 20, 25, the ones that I'm focused on, I'm focused on Superman and Fantastic Four. I hate to say I've given up on the other two, but I kind of have, like, I think they're gonna be hit. It's Fantastic Four and a Superman. If those two can be big hits for the genre, the genre will move forward. [01:21:15] Speaker A: If they just don't. Yeah, I just hope that they don't. Mayor Hum, Digger Galactus, man, that's what I'm scared of. That's what I'm. That's what I'm afraid of. Him peeking in the building like, where are you? You know what I'm saying? [01:21:30] Speaker B: Before we start, I have a couple. I have. I have to do this. There's some box office stuff I got to leave you with before we go into. So we got the fall coming up. We just had Venom. So Venom did about 50 million US opening weekend. That obviously was a disappointment. First two movies were 80 and 90. We got the box office tracking for. Okay. Which is going to be supposedly 100 to 125 million opening weekend. No surprise really there. Gladiator 2, a three hour Gladiator 2 rated R. The tracking for the opening weekend right now is 60 or 90. 60 to 80. You're pretty close. [01:22:08] Speaker A: That's huge. [01:22:09] Speaker B: Three hour R rated movie. That's an enormous number. Yeah, so that's actually a really good sign for that film. But then there's Red one. And I just gotta say, I couldn't do it. I couldn't leave it. You know, we got two veterans of the comic book genre here in a $250 million budgeted movie. Actually three. Let's not forget J.K. simmons also has been in the genre as well. So Your headliners, Dwayne Johnson, Chris Evans, J.K. simmons in a $250 million Christmas family action movie, Red One. And the opening weekend ranges 20 to 35 million. Pablo, that is a disaster for the Rock. [01:22:49] Speaker A: I don't know why people or executives are getting into these partnerships with. Granted, yes, he's using his fan base as leverage. Look at me. I have 500 million subscribers or fans. That. That's money, right? Yes, of course. Right. [01:23:18] Speaker B: Sounds like a lot of bootlegs. [01:23:21] Speaker A: Like a lot of bots that aren't buying tickets and showing up to the theaters. Because this is not good. How do you. I'm telling you, I want to hear what he has to say about this. This next failure. What is it going to be about this time? That's what I want to hear. If I'm going to throw my hands up in the air, if he says, oh, we made profit on this movie, this is the number. I want to throw my hands up in the air and be like, whatever, yo, whatever, whatever. But it doesn't make sense. [01:24:03] Speaker B: Don't forget, when they announced this movie, what they said it was going to be. Quote, Red One is a four quadrant holiday family film that is planned to be a large franchise with merchandising across the Amazon universe. This is supposed to launch an entire universe and it's going to lose an enormous amount of money. I hope that Adam was supposed to change the hierarchy and launch an entire universe in D.C. centered on Dwayne Johnson, and that never happened. [01:24:41] Speaker A: Dwayne the Rock Johnson is the universe destroyer. Word up, yo. Word up, yo. I mean, he's supposed to be Apocalypse in. Apparently there's a rumor, right? Isn't there something. [01:25:02] Speaker B: There's been a rumor of that? [01:25:03] Speaker A: I pray to God no, man. Because come on, what the hell are we doing here, Harry? $250 million and you're tracking 2530 million and you're not going to probably make any profit. And all these thoughts and hopes that you have for to make what Tracy would call lunchbox money, right? France, you know, franchise. All these little things you want to sell and stuff, and this nothing. You're not getting your return, despite what that 500 million subscriber base of fans that he has. [01:25:51] Speaker B: Well, we did get the teaser that his. He's gonna be. He's working with J.J. abrams on a movie now. Oh, yeah. [01:25:56] Speaker A: No, I mean, he gave you the same shot only with three other people. He had the same shot with Harry Cavill the other time, right? Didn't he have that with a Nice summer in the. The sun was in the background. All that. And now he's doing it with these guys. To do what? From what I heard, I think Jeff Snyder was on a podcast talking about what this film is about, and it's similar to Iron Eagle. Remember Iron Eagle? [01:26:28] Speaker B: I remember Iron Eagle shouts to. And Rest in Peace. Louis Goss. [01:26:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Lose Gossip Junior. Yeah. One of my favorite movies growing up. It's something similar to that, Brian, but with. Whatever it is, is. I'm telling you, the stuff that the Rock does is whack. I'm sorry, yo, who? You can't tell me that you can't. There's nothing that you can say that he's done late. That's dope. And this is just another example of his star power really not meaning anything because it's not attached to what? Quality? [01:27:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:27:12] Speaker A: And look, I mean, kind of quality storytelling. Go ahead. [01:27:15] Speaker B: And I was just gonna say, like. And I know this is going into a whole other subject, but we had to talk about it is, you know, things were looking pretty bleak for Henry Cavill, but look what's happened since he got out from under the thumb. Like, at first we were kind of being like, warhammer, that's all you got. But then, you know, Ultron. I think Highlander is gonna work. I think Voltron, with Amazon's backing, has real potential. He started getting some roles, like in the Guy Ritchie verse, like Minister, Gentleman, the War. He started back to, like, doing some smaller parts in kind of more, you know, movies that let him act a little bit more. And all of a sudden you're like, henry Cavill as star, is headed back in the right direction. But all of that happened immediately after he shed himself a Rock book. Exactly. Fire the agent got away from that after the Superman embarrassment. [01:28:13] Speaker A: That's what that was, an embarrassment. That was a plot to trick you into thinking something was happening and when, in fact, it wasn't. [01:28:27] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that was the Rock. You gotta find that clip of Carl Weathers from Predator. [01:28:33] Speaker A: An expendable asset, and I used you. [01:28:37] Speaker B: To get the job done. [01:28:38] Speaker A: Got it. [01:28:39] Speaker B: That's what the Rock did. Henry Cavill. [01:28:42] Speaker A: Yeah, man. I was watching Predator the other day. Fantastic movie, yo. Fantastic. Perfect movie. [01:28:48] Speaker B: Is a perfect. It's a perfect movie. No, that's correct. So I will say that, like, Arnold's hall of fame movie will always probably be Terminator 2. That's the biggest movie. But my favorite movie he ever did is Predator. [01:29:01] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, let's sign off. Let us know in the comment section below. What you guys think of everything that we've talked about. And we'll see you next time on the NO J Report. The show goes on.